How screwed am I?
-
The shavings were inside the cam? They could be from somewhere else and collected there because of magnetism. I don't remember if the lower timing chain guide is steel or aluminum under the plastic guide. You should be able to see if it looks ok with a flashlight.
-
I have only seen aluminum under the plastic guide.
I am a bit baffled as to where metal shavings would come from if it was not very obvious. -
The shavings were inside the cam? They could be from somewhere else and collected there because of magnetism. I don't remember if the lower timing chain guide is steel or aluminum under the plastic guide. You should be able to see if it looks ok with a flashlight.
Yeah they were on the inside of the camshaft with some on the ledge between the exhaust sprocket and the cam. You can see a few sparkles on the opening in the picture I posted and some around the inside edge of the sprocket. It just seems weird to me that they would gather there and not be anywhere else that I could see.
I have only seen aluminum under the plastic guide.
I am a bit baffled as to where metal shavings would come from if it was not very obvious.That's why I am so confused. You'd think I would see bits and pieces all over the engine but they were only around the opening of the cam and nowhere else I could see, the rest of the head was really clean.
The outside of the chain didn't look like it had any wear and the upper chain guides were all in good shape so I would be surprised if the lower guides were worn that badly. Maybe the oil pump sprocket? That is the only steel thing I can think of on that side of the engine that could possibly cause shavings to get up there.
-
I went back to the place I get rid of my oil and dug the filter out of the bin, brought it home and pulled it apart to get a better look as I hadn't looked at it too hard on Saturday. Fortunately, it looks pretty good considering it has about 4k miles on it, so I don't think any shavings are getting picked up by the pump very often. I ran a magnet over the folds and got maybe 5-10 small metallic pieces, about the size of a grain of sand. The rest of the particles were black and non magnetic. This was out of 2/3 of the filter, didn't bother ripping apart the last third as it was a bit of a pain. I'm going to put in a magnetic drain plug soon (ordered one from TMS) to hopefully catch anything while I wait till I can pull the pan.
-
have you ever had the valve cover off in the past where you'd know this is a new thing?
Dan
-
have you ever had the valve cover off in the past where you'd know this is a new thing?
Unfortunately no, this is the first time it's been off in my ownership
-
hmm. i'm trying to imagine a situation where the flakes got in there a long time ago and just haven't all found there way out yet.
hopefully pulling the pan may uncover something. or maybe hopefully pulling the pan will uncover nothing...
Dan
-
If you are really concerned and don't want to pull the engine apart you could start by sending in the oil for analysis. The wear part per million will tell you what type of metal you are dealing with. It will at least give you peace of mind knowing if its a bearing or not.
-
hmm. i'm trying to imagine a situation where the flakes got in there a long time ago and just haven't all found there way out yet.
hopefully pulling the pan may uncover something. or maybe hopefully pulling the pan will uncover nothing...
That's what is really bugging me. I basically have no maintenance records from the previous owner so I have no way of telling if anything was done in the past that could cause or repair something causing shavings.
If you are really concerned and don't want to pull the engine apart you could start by sending in the oil for analysis. The wear part per million will tell you what type of metal you are dealing with. It will at least give you peace of mind knowing if its a bearing or not.
I changed the oil on Saturday and found the issue on Sunday, unfortunately I already disposed of the oil and have no way to get it back because that would really help me get answers. The particles I pulled from the engine were magnetic shavings (so most likely steel) with some being a bit bigger than a grain of sand, if it were rod bearings I would imagine I'd be hearing knocking.
I ordered all the "while I'm in there" parts for pulling the oil pan including a new oil pump sprocket (if that is the shavings culprit) so I am hoping to start it this weekend or sooner, I'll be parking the car tonight after work (I have driven it like a grandma, not exceeding 3k rpm and only about 40 miles) and borrowing another so I don't potentially cause any more damage. The only parts that are steel (that I can think of) that I didn't get to look at were the crankshaft timing sprocket and the oil pump chain/sprocket. My hope is to find an answer when I pull the pan, if I don't find anything there I am going to pull the valve cover again to get another look. If that yeilds nothing I may have to pull the lower timing cover as well. As I have never pulled the timing cover on an m/s52, do I have the potential of messing up the head gasket by pulling the cover? I am really hoping to not have to pull the head...
-
As I have never pulled the timing cover on an m/s52, do I have the potential of messing up the head gasket by pulling the cover? I am really hoping to not have to pull the head...
well anything can be f*d up, but you don't seem like the guy who would do that. the timing covers are designed to come off without the need for replacement the headgasket at the same time. i'f its anything like the m60/m62, i'd imagine the bentley manual suggests using some sort of sealant around the part of the headgasket that will be exposed when resealed.
Dan
-
Idk man. Flakes from chain/sprocket wear are usually fine from what I have heard. Plus I'm sure you would have seen flakes in the filter if it were the bottom end. Not to mention more dense material would migrate to the bottom not the head. If you still have the oil you drained run a magnet through it.
-
Idk man. Flakes from chain/sprocket wear are usually fine from what I have heard. Plus I'm sure you would have seen flakes in the filter if it were the bottom end. Not to mention more dense material would migrate to the bottom not the head. If you still have the oil you drained run a magnet through it.
I had gotten rid of the oil before I found the problem unfortunately, what is in the car now is fresh. If there were any metal pieces in the old oil I did not see them when pouring it from my drain pan into containers to take to the disposal place so any in there were minimal. But, to be fair I didn't really scrutinize it because I was short on time. There was nothing in all the random pockets around the head, it was all concentrated in the opening of the cam and some around the inside edge of the vanos sprocket on the exhaust cam.
Finer shavings would make sense in a normal situation, but my current theory is this: (this is what happens when a mechanical engineer is left alone with their thoughts...)
The oil pump sprocket could be loose (oil pump nuts coming off is common) and wobbling around on the shaft with the chain causing slightly bigger pieces when it gets out of alignment before the chain nudges it back straight. Here, a metal flake is born. It could be one or two flakes very rarely, maybe even a hundred miles apart, and they get carried up the main timing chain while any that are sucked up by the filter get caught there and don't get any further into the engine (I did find a few small pieces in the filter, but certainly not many or any amount that was alarming). This could've been going on for a while as the oil pump nut failures were happening as early as 50k miles and maybe even earlier (I've got just over double that), and the opening of the exhaust cam is the only place in the whole timing chain path that isn't being bathed with oil and washing any particles back down into the sump, so it could make sense that shavings could collect there. The car was never driven hard according to the previous owner who had it since 2001 and 30k miles, so its possible that the oil pump nut became loose but did not fall off thanks to the left hand threads. He changed the oil every 3k like I usually do so that may not have given it a lot of time to accumulate shavings in the pan either. Is this completely and entirely crazy and mostly for your entertainment? Yes. But after this I'm out of ideas...
-
JosephStrackbein said:
Idk man. Flakes from chain/sprocket wear are usually fine from what I have heard. Plus I'm sure you would have seen flakes in the filter if it were the bottom end. Not to mention more dense material would migrate to the bottom not the head. If you still have the oil you drained run a magnet through it.
I had gotten rid of the oil before I found the problem unfortunately, what is in the car now is fresh. If there were any metal pieces in the old oil I did not see them when pouring it from my drain pan into containers to take to the disposal place so any in there were minimal. But, to be fair I didn't really scrutinize it because I was short on time. There was nothing in all the random pockets around the head, it was all concentrated in the opening of the cam and some around the inside edge of the vanos sprocket on the exhaust cam.
Finer shavings would make sense in a normal situation, but my current theory is this: (this is what happens when a mechanical engineer is left alone with their thoughts...)
The oil pump sprocket could be loose (oil pump nuts coming off is common) and wobbling around on the shaft with the chain causing slightly bigger pieces when it gets out of alignment before the chain nudges it back straight. Here, a metal flake is born. It could be one or two flakes very rarely, maybe even a hundred miles apart, and they get carried up the main timing chain while any that are sucked up by the filter get caught there and don't get any further into the engine (I did find a few small pieces in the filter, but certainly not many or any amount that was alarming). This could've been going on for a while as the oil pump nut failures were happening as early as 50k miles and maybe even earlier (I've got just over double that), and the opening of the exhaust cam is the only place in the whole timing chain path that isn't being bathed with oil and washing any particles back down into the sump, so it could make sense that shavings could collect there. The car was never driven hard according to the previous owner who had it since 2001 and 30k miles, so its possible that the oil pump nut became loose but did not fall off thanks to the left hand threads. He changed the oil every 3k like I usually do so that may not have given it a lot of time to accumulate shavings in the pan either. Is this completely and entirely crazy and mostly for your entertainment? Yes. But after this I'm out of ideas...
Haha I like your train of thought. I considered that but the cam timing chain is on the outside where the deposit is. How did it jump chains? You peaked my interest now. Did you see any wear on chain as if it were gouging into the sprocket? I have never had any experience with vanos rattling. Why did you rule that out?
-
Haha I like your train of thought. I considered that but the cam timing chain is on the outside where the deposit is. How did it jump chains? You peaked my interest now. Did you see any wear on chain as if it were gouging into the sprocket? I have never had any experience with vanos rattling. Why did you rule that out?
That's the part of the theory that I can't figure out, unless there is oil pushing them in that direction. Thing is, they would have to jump from the oil pump chain to the crankshaft timing chain to the cam timing chain. Neither chain I was able to see (crankshaft and cam chains) showed any signs of damage. I ruled out the shavings being caused by the vanos because I had the entire unit apart on my bench when I did the seals and rattle repair, the bearings were in good shape and the splines on both the vanos unit and the cams were also ok, no abnormal wear anywhere.
I have to do the brakes on the car I am borrowing for the time being because they're grinding pretty bad, and then hoping to get my valve cover off again maybe tomorrow after work to start investigating further.
-
I have to do the brakes on the car I am borrowing for the time being because they're grinding pretty bad, and then hoping to get my valve cover off again maybe tomorrow after work to start investigating further.
Your car has problems. You borrow a car so that you can work on your problem car. Instead of fixing your problem car you work on the car that you borrowed... It seems like you somehow turned 1 problem into 2. You're better off walking...
In all seriousness I would inspect between the two exhaust cam sprockets to make sure the slotted inner one hasn't come loose at any point. I noticed you had the torx bolts off already. Were they easy to come off?
-
Your car has problems. You borrow a car so that you can work on your problem car. Instead of fixing your problem car you work on the car that you borrowed... It seems like you somehow turned 1 problem into 2. You're better off walking...
In all seriousness I would inspect between the two exhaust cam sprockets to make sure the slotted inner one hasn't come loose at any point. I noticed you had the torx bolts off already. Were they easy to come off?
It gets better than that, I have to do the rear main seal, valve cover gasket, ball joints, and potentially the pinion bearing and carrier bearings on my girlfriends xj as well. It hasn't been a good week for me haha, but to be fair I am replacing the brakes on the Jeep I am borrowing from my parents as a thank you for them letting me borrow it all the time lately.
You have to remove those torx bolts in order to remove the vanos (I had the cams locked with the proper tool and the engine locked at TDC, don't worry), they were very tight and took enough force to crack loose that I busted up my knuckle pretty good on the first one. I removed the exhaust cam sprocket completely after I found the shavings and the surface between looked ok. I think the best plan of action is to just start taking stuff apart and get a better look/tons of pictures
-
Safety wire that oil pump nut! The m50 I pulled, the nut was finger loose. I safety wired the one in my s50
-
Started tearing into the car this afternoon, got the valve cover back off and after quite a bit of searching around I found this clue:
It is made of black plastic but is not the same material of the tensioners so it couldn't have come from them. It is about 3/8" by 1 inch long and was sitting on top of the lower chain tensioner where it meets the guide. You can see it way down there where the inner side of the tensioner should be.
Any idea what it could be from? Maybe a cover for a sensor or something? I checked over the valve cover and all the other plastic parts in the head and nothing stood out to me as the source.
-
Pulled the oil pan yesterday, oil pump nut was on there tight (took it off for safety wire/loctite) and there was nothing in the pan. Crank sprocket and oil pump sprocket in good shape. Nothing looked wrong with the crank/rods that would indicate a problem and I could still see crosshatching on the #1 and #2 cylinder bores. Stuck a magnetic pickup everywhere and didn't find any shavings. Didn't pull the windage tray as it didn't seem necessary at that point. Got a look at the timing chain guides and they are not broken or misaligned so I don't think I need to go through the trouble of pulling the timing cover.
What I did find was the other piece of that plastic cap I pulled out on Saturday, it fell out of the oil pickup tube as I was taking it off (replaced with a z3 2.8 tube). I'm pretty convinced that it was foreign so I'm glad to have found all the parts of it. I'll post some pictures of things later today. At this point I have no idea where else to look without pulling things like the cams.
-
yeah, that plastic piece looks a cap which wouldnt be found anywhere inside the engine. i looked through realoem and didnt see anything that stood out in the diagrams. maybe someone just dropped it down the oil filler and when the engine was started it contacted the chains/cams on the way down it took a little chuck out somewhere and those are the shavings you see?
Dan
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login