i may have to buy an M2
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I would guess it's going to have to be starting at the $58-$60k arena. Even at that price your still competing with the starting price of the M3/M4 at $63/$65. A well optioned M235i comes in around $56k right now but that's with the $3500 LSD option which I assume the M2 would have standard.
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leaked article suggests price starts at $51k for a stripper model.
http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1183571
can't wait for the official reveal this evening.
If the info is accurate, I may unable to pass this up. It will likely be hard to get one in 2016. It could end up being similar to the Ford GT350 - they announced it as a 5-year run car, and first year is only 150 units with 5k/yr production through 2020.
Fingers crossed.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
Im still voting for long beach blue
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there it is. I'm sold. This will replace my 135.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
Im still voting for long beach blue
Didn't realize red wouldn't be an option so changing my vote to the only interesting color offered...
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yes car bloat is a problem for sure in the auto industry as a whole, but in terms of M division there has been a more holistic improvement in the cars.
as the weight has gone up, so has the braking power, horsepower, and if you've ever seen a modern M chassis right down to the tub, you can see a lot of strength. With a stiffer set of coilovers, I would have 0 concerns about the weight of the M2 and its ability to handle at the track, and it damn sure wouldn't feel sloppy. an M235i is sloppy because it's not an M car. It has shitty soft suspension just like my shitty soft suspension on my 135i. M cars feel tight no matter what.
an e46 M3 CSL goes around the Ring in 7:50. Compared to 7:52 on the M4 and 7:58 on the M2. Think about that. That M3 CSL was 3000 pounds but it was fucking gutted. Utterly gutted. No amenities, just pure driver car. So BMW, for all the weight gain in the M series of recent years, shows the CSL is only a mere 2 seconds faster than it's direct big brother the M4. But that new M4 has driving manners and really nice tech features and better safety features. It doesn't have to sacrifice everything to have a good lap time.
That's called evolution.
BMW M has always been about balance of performance and driving manners. They've never had a mass-production M car that is a purpose-built race car. The E46 CSL was a special vehicle that took some amount of aim at that but was never a household thing. The reason that M has been the gold standard in overall performance for 25 years is because it's a car that does everything very well, with an slight lean towards performance/racing.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
yes car bloat is a problem for sure in the auto industry as a whole, but in terms of M division there has been a more holistic improvement in the cars.
as the weight has gone up, so has the braking power, horsepower, and if you've ever seen a modern M chassis right down to the tub, you can see a lot of strength. With a stiffer set of coilovers, I would have 0 concerns about the weight of the M2 and its ability to handle at the track, and it damn sure wouldn't feel sloppy. an M235i is sloppy because it's not an M car. It has shitty soft suspension just like my shitty soft suspension on my 135i. M cars feel tight no matter what.
an e46 M3 CSL goes around the Ring in 7:50. Compared to 7:52 on the M4 and 7:58 on the M2. Think about that. That M3 CSL was 3000 pounds but it was fucking gutted. Utterly gutted. No amenities, just pure driver car. So BMW, for all the weight gain in the M series of recent years, shows the CSL is only a mere 2 seconds faster than it's direct big brother the M4. But that new M4 has driving manners and really nice tech features and better safety features. It doesn't have to sacrifice everything to have a good lap time.
That's called evolution.
BMW M has always been about balance of performance and driving manners. They've never had a mass-production M car that is a purpose-built race car. The E46 CSL was a special vehicle that took some amount of aim at that but was never a household thing. The reason that M has been the gold standard in overall performance for 25 years is because it's a car that does everything very well, with an slight lean towards performance/racing.
I present to you, the M4 GTS. Purpose built track demon.
The m1, a homologation special track car.
The e30 m3 evo cars, homolgation special track cars.
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And now back in track...http://jalopnik.com/the-2016-bmw-m2-is-a-365-horsepower-love-letter-to-spee-1736354132
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that little car weighs 3450 lbs? What is this world coming to? Is anything even close to 3000 anymore?
Porsche Caymans are just a shade under and I would assume those Lotus mini-cars are also, everything else performance oriented is ~3500 these days.
Weights never go down with very few exceptions like the new mk(whatever they're up to now) VW GTI which went down a few hundred pounds.
That's the world we live in.
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I present to you, the M4 GTS. Purpose built track demon.
The m1, a homologation special track car.
The e30 m3 evo cars, homolgation special track cars.
did you miss the part where I said they've never had a "MASS-PRODUCTION" purpose-built track car? You are going to tell me those examples you just gave were/are going to be mass-produced as the de-facto standard?
The M3 is the defacto standard, and that has never been sold, advertised, or reviewed as anything other than the perfectly balanced performance machine, with an edge leaning towards track-inspired driving dynamics.
Not the M4 GTS, not the M1, and not any e30 evo.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
i should mention that I still plan to upgrade the turbo on my 135 in a few months and do some light suspension work. The results of how I feel afterwards will determine if I buy an M2 sooner rather than later.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
yes car bloat is a problem for sure in the auto industry as a whole, but in terms of M division there has been a more holistic improvement in the cars.
as the weight has gone up, so has the braking power, horsepower, and if you've ever seen a modern M chassis right down to the tub, you can see a lot of strength. With a stiffer set of coilovers, I would have 0 concerns about the weight of the M2 and its ability to handle at the track, and it damn sure wouldn't feel sloppy. an M235i is sloppy because it's not an M car. It has shitty soft suspension just like my shitty soft suspension on my 135i. M cars feel tight no matter what.
an e46 M3 CSL goes around the Ring in 7:50. Compared to 7:52 on the M4 and 7:58 on the M2. Think about that. That M3 CSL was 3000 pounds but it was fucking gutted. Utterly gutted. No amenities, just pure driver car. So BMW, for all the weight gain in the M series of recent years, shows the CSL is only a mere 2 seconds faster than it's direct big brother the M4. But that new M4 has driving manners and really nice tech features and better safety features. It doesn't have to sacrifice everything to have a good lap time.
That's called evolution.
BMW M has always been about balance of performance and driving manners. They've never had a mass-production M car that is a purpose-built race car. The E46 CSL was a special vehicle that took some amount of aim at that but was never a household thing. The reason that M has been the gold standard in overall performance for 25 years is because it's a car that does everything very well, with an slight lean towards performance/racing.
you sound like a PR release as part of the new video. I know all the info you suggested -- that is not the point.
The point I tried to make in fewer words is that it is depressing to see the weight of new cars. Sure, it may be great on track -- for two sessions. Then the brakes overheat, the tires wear out quickly and you wish you could lose another 500lbs fast. That is part of the reason why anyone that tracks even an e46 m3 finds out the hard way after 2 sessions that the factory brakes suck. They are not track brakes and I'm sure neither are these -- despite their catchy blue paint job and fancy piston count!
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you sound like a PR release as part of the new video. I know all the info you suggested -- that is not the point.
The point I tried to make in fewer words is that it is depressing to see the weight of new cars. Sure, it may be great on track -- for two sessions. Then the brakes overheat, the tires wear out quickly and you wish you could lose another 500lbs fast. That is part of the reason why anyone that tracks even an e46 m3 finds out the hard way after 2 sessions that the factory brakes suck. They are not track brakes and I'm sure neither are these -- despite their catchy blue paint job and fancy piston count!
that's cute, considering I run hot laps in my 135i with stock brakes and never have any issues after 6 or 7 30 minute sessions in a given day. Stock brakes on these cars are not racing brakes, but to make ignorant assumptions about how durable they are at the track is a step too far.
I have 6-piston calipers in front but I also know that the rotor heat dissipation is not as ideal as it could be, and the caliper pistons are actually made of a shitty cheap material that has actually started on fire and melted on some 135i's at the track. I know the weaknesses of stock brakes on cars as they get heavier because stopping so much weight will generate a ton of heat. There is definitely a limit but you are grossly exaggerating the limitations of the stock brakes on these cars based on their weight.
You are talking as if they are completely incapable of repeated track use. I've never seen a late-model BMW side-lined at the track due to brakes overheating. Ever. 98% of people buying a new M and tracking it will not have the skill to push the car to such a limit where the brakes would actually overheat and fail.
I don't want to discount the fact that a lighter car with good brakes will allow you to brake a lot later before turn-in - there's a reason people love Miatas at the track. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point - I'm saying you are overstating limitations of modern brakes on a car like a BMW M. 2 sessions and being sidelined is laughable.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
that's cute, considering I run hot laps in my 135i with stock brakes and never have any issues after 6 or 7 30 minute sessions in a given day. Stock brakes on these cars are not racing brakes, but to make ignorant assumptions about how durable they are at the track is a step too far.
I have 6-piston calipers in front but I also know that the rotor heat dissipation is not as ideal as it could be, and the caliper pistons are actually made of a shitty cheap material that has actually started on fire and melted on some 135i's at the track. I know the weaknesses of stock brakes on cars as they get heavier because stopping so much weight will generate a ton of heat. There is definitely a limit but you are grossly exaggerating the limitations of the stock brakes on these cars based on their weight.
You are talking as if they are completely incapable of repeated track use. I've never seen a late-model BMW side-lined at the track due to brakes overheating. Ever. 98% of people buying a new M and tracking it will not have the skill to push the car to such a limit where the brakes would actually overheat and fail.
I don't want to discount the fact that a lighter car with good brakes will allow you to brake a lot later before turn-in - there's a reason people love Miatas at the track. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point - I'm saying you are overstating limitations of modern brakes on a car like a BMW M. 2 sessions and being sidelined is laughable.
Maybe it's driver, maybe it's not. My cars are relatively light. In 10 years of regular track duty I've seen e46 m3's and newer have brake problems every track weekend. The cars that don't typically have aftermarket kits on them. I've seen it in Intermediate and Advanced run groups, typically the instructors know by then that the stock brakes aren't worth the hassle and have upgraded.
I saw your car at the BMW club weekend at Road America -- didn't you see any prorblems? One guy ran home for rotors, another needed brake pads -- it's totally common on a hard driven e46+.
I'm glad your experiences have been different, but as you push your car harder I expect you'll probably see what I mean.
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did you miss the part where I said they've never had a "MASS-PRODUCTION" purpose-built track car? You are going to tell me those examples you just gave were/are going to be mass-produced as the de-facto standard?
The M3 is the defacto standard, and that has never been sold, advertised, or reviewed as anything other than the perfectly balanced performance machine, with an edge leaning towards track-inspired driving dynamics.
Not the M4 GTS, not the M1, and not any e30 evo.
You would be correct in me missing the mass production part of that.
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Maybe it's driver, maybe it's not. My cars are relatively light. In 10 years of regular track duty I've seen e46 m3's and newer have brake problems every track weekend. The cars that don't typically have aftermarket kits on them. I've seen it in Intermediate and Advanced run groups, typically the instructors know by then that the stock brakes aren't worth the hassle and have upgraded.
I saw your car at the BMW club weekend at Road America -- didn't you see any prorblems? One guy ran home for rotors, another needed brake pads -- it's totally common on a hard driven e46+.
I'm glad your experiences have been different, but as you push your car harder I expect you'll probably see what I mean.
yeah I count myself among the people where I say "most people don't have the skill to push the car to the limit..." - I am an intermediate-level driver and have done this for a few years now, but by no means am I pushing as hard as anyone in an advanced group on a DE or anyone who is doing wheel-to-wheel racing.
But along that line, for an experienced driver I would submit most cars you buy other than something like a GT3 are going to struggle to keep up under such hard driving conditions on stock brakes, regardless of weight. If you are a very good driver and carry a lot of speed, you're going to eventually need a better brake package than OE.
and that's a large part of what I'm trying to get at here - these cars are not race cars. They perform well and are totally competent for regular DE duty for most people. I run a good track pad and good fluid on stock rotors/calipers right now and that's good enough. I know it won't be forever, but it's plenty for now and that would apply to most drivers. Take a look around at any DE and probably 75% of people in the advanced groups have trailered cars that aren't even remotely close to stock, and for good reason.
I definitely saw at least one dude have to go into town and try to source pads, lol
But there were several e9x m3's that had no issues on stock brakes even though the guys all brought spare pad sets just in case. Granted I passed all of those guys as they weren't really driving that well, but that goes back to my point that for most people, these cars are just fine despite their weight. For reference I absolutely hear you on the e46 and submit that for some reason that particular car seems to just not have as good of brakes as you'd like out of the box. My good friend has one and I've driven it hard before he upgraded the brakes and it was night and day difference for sure.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i
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