Which M3 is Best M3?
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What makes it better?
Do you believe the S54 is better than the S65? From what I see the 100lb weight difference is more than made up with the 100hp gain. Not to mention that an S65 seems to be more reliable and require slightly less maintenance than an S54.
Copied from the link you sent me:
Cast-iron cylinder block of this engine has been improved: increased bore to 87 mm, forged crankshaft with a stroke of 91 mm and with 12 counterweights. Also applied reinforced forged connecting rods (length 139 mm), new high compression pistons (CR=11.5), their compression height 32.3 mm. The pistons are cooled by oil spray nozzles.
There were following changes in cylinder head: improved continuously variable valve timing system Double-VANOS, used new cast iron hollow camshafts (duration 260/260, lift 12/12 mm) and decreased weight of the cylinder head. Valves as on S50B32. -
And no, I don't think the S54 is better than the S65. S65> All other M engines.
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We haven't defined what best means.
If we are talking about the best overall package for driving on the street and to/from the track, the E9x wins by a fucking landslide. The tech and creature comforts and interior are a cut above the E46, and as Pat already noted - the lap times are on the same page or better in the E9x.
If we're talking about raw driving experience overall - the E46 wins. It is the pinnacle of the "pure driver engagement" factor of the M cars. E30 started it but E46 perfected it.
If we're talking about the engine - the S65 perfected what the E46 started with 100+ hp per liter, because the S65 did it with 2 more cylinders and a significantly higher redline. There's no question that the S65 mechanically is the more impressive piece of engineering. It's simply a fact of physics and design.
For a dedicated track car it is a no brainer - the E46 wins. But only as a dedicated track car because it's cheaper and parts are plentiful and the aftermarket has had an extra decade to perfect itself compared to the E9x.
For literally anything other than a dedicated track car, the E9x is a superior vehicle choice on paper because it retains everything that made the E46 good like hydraulic steering and high revs, and improves everything else inside the cabin. The only reason to get an E46 M3 at that point is because it's cheaper, or if you simply just arbitrarily "like it" more than the E9x. But in terms of facts and engineering achievement, the E9x is just simply better.
My next track car will very likely be an E46 M3.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
Man, of money were no object I might say a stripper e9x would be my track car. Now money is a very real object in my life so I'd take an S54 for a track toy but I really love the e9x chassis.
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Man, of money were no object I might say a stripper e9x would be my track car. Now money is a very real object in my life so I'd take an S54 for a track toy but I really love the e9x chassis.
Ok well if we're talking money is no object then I'll bring a GT3 RS and destroy any E9x M3 no matter how many hundreds of thousands you put into the car.
Let's keep it realistic because if you think the E9x would be your track toy if money were truly no object, then you're just letting your bias in because you are still high on your recent jump into ownership.
The M3 is not even close to the end-all be-all of track cars if money is no object.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
What I meant was between the two options presented. Yea, if I can pick anything then a 997 GT2 RS or some variant of the GT3 or Cayman GT4 are my choices.
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There's no question that the S65 mechanically is the more impressive piece of engineering. It's simply a fact of physics and design.
But in terms of facts and engineering achievement, the E9x is just simply better.
those are opinions, not facts.
whats more of an engineering achievement - a single man using a shovel, wood and ropes to tip a 20 ton rocks on its end, or modern crane that lifts it into place? ya, the crane is faster at completing the task, but it took millions of dollars in equipment and tools, thousands of pounds of materials, and hundreds of hours to build it first. the man just ate some tacos, sawed some trees, and dug a hole.
in my opinion a car/motor that is simpler is more of an engineering achievement.
Dan
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in my opinion a car/motor that is simpler is more of an engineering achievement.
So... LS swap?
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What's the point of owning the Datsun and an e9x M3? Maybe I'm too ignorant for this conversation, but they seem too similar to me. The e46 at least adds a little spice. I have limited experience, but my general impression is that e46s in general are kind of cheap and crappy, whereas e9x is a pretty solid car.
I think the e46 will be less reliable, and require more pain and suffering to live with, which results in more frequent and entertaining posts, so that's my vote.
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What I meant was between the two options presented. Yea, if I can pick anything then a 997 GT2 RS or some variant of the GT3 or Cayman GT4 are my choices.
I would look for a open wheel race car, the grip on those are crazy. I only drove Skippy open wheel on street rubber, but taking the boot in Watkins Glen trying to keep up with the instructor (which he complimented me on) was almost too scary.
I would get the e46 over the e9x, but neither are the best m3, that would be a debate between the e30 & the euro e36 (s50b32).
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those are opinions, not facts.
whats more of an engineering achievement - a single man using a shovel, wood and ropes to tip a 20 ton rocks on its end, or modern crane that lifts it into place? ya, the crane is faster at completing the task, but it took millions of dollars in equipment and tools, thousands of pounds of materials, and hundreds of hours to build it first. the man just ate some tacos, sawed some trees, and dug a hole.
in my opinion a car/motor that is simpler is more of an engineering achievement.
This is a terrible analogy. #1. That single mans results are not repeatable nearly as easily as the crane. #2. By this logic the man who digs his own hole and shits in it has achieved a far greater engineering achievement than the guy who invents the toilet and associated plumbing to shit in because the hole in the ground is simpler. In your example I can move for more rocks at a faster rate than the single man doing it manually. I can also operate that piece of equipment for a longer period of time without rest where as the human design has inherent flaws built in such as the need for food, water and sleep. The piece of equipment also won't age the same way as the human. In 10 years that man may be dead at which point I need another taco eating, tree cutting, hole digging man to replace him. Also that man being a man it can be assumed that eventually he'll want to find an easier way to perform this task... which is when he finds the crane and realizes that it's far superior to him doing it on his own.
I'm not for over complicating things but simpler doesn't always mean better. No intelligent person is out there lauding the superiority of the carburetor and drum brakes because they're far simpler than that blasted electronic fuel injection and disc brake set up. I can fully understand and appreciate "simplify and add lightness" but it's not an end all be all for engineering achievement. Relating this back to the topic, the S65 creates more power than the S54 while getting similar fuel mileage. The S65 creates more energy using almost the same amount of fuel. That alone is an engineering win for the S65 over the S54 by adding some technowizardry that we never see.
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I think it all boils down to the fact that 'best' is completely relative. A us-spec e36 m3 (in good shape, up to date on maintenance, etc) is simple, reliable, and cheaper to maintain than any other m3 of the same condition. This makes it the best for what I want in a fun daily driver, but it doesn't make it better to someone looking for the best in overall performance or build quality. In my opinion: the e30 M3 looks better than all the other m3's, the e9x m3 definitely sounds better than all the other m3's, want something for the track: e46, investment/classic sports car: e30, comfortable daily driver that also rips: e9x, live for the sound of a shaken up tin can full of bees: f80.... but a lot of people may disagree with these. It just depends where your priorities are, your tastes, and what you plan to do with it.
As far as one generation being better than others from an engineering standpoint, it makes sense that each generation is 'better' than the previous. No car is going to be technologically worse than its predecessor, bmw's ///marketing department would never let that happen. Generally, 0-60, track times, power, fuel economy, emissions, etc. will all be the same as before or lower, with the sum of everything being an improvement on paper.
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This is a terrible analogy. #1. That single mans results are not repeatable nearly as easily as the crane. #2. By this logic the man who digs his own hole and shits in it has achieved a far greater engineering achievement than the guy who invents the toilet and associated plumbing to shit in because the hole in the ground is simpler. In your example I can move for more rocks at a faster rate than the single man doing it manually. I can also operate that piece of equipment for a longer period of time without rest where as the human design has inherent flaws built in such as the need for food, water and sleep. The piece of equipment also won't age the same way as the human. In 10 years that man may be dead at which point I need another taco eating, tree cutting, hole digging man to replace him. Also that man being a man it can be assumed that eventually he'll want to find an easier way to perform this task... which is when he finds the crane and realizes that it's far superior to him doing it on his own.
I'm not for over complicating things but simpler doesn't always mean better. No intelligent person is out there lauding the superiority of the carburetor and drum brakes because they're far simpler than that blasted electronic fuel injection and disc brake set up. I can fully understand and appreciate "simplify and add lightness" but it's not an end all be all for engineering achievement. Relating this back to the topic, the S65 creates more power than the S54 while getting similar fuel mileage. The S65 creates more energy using almost the same amount of fuel. That alone is an engineering win for the S65 over the S54 by adding some technowizardry that we never see.
I think you illustrated his point perfectly. All of your arguments are based on an economic view of "efficiency". When human beings are concerned aesthetics take precedence over economics. Humans are ashamed of their waste and excess, so the simpler, more minimal solutions are considered more elegent and desirable.
No car enthusiast makes purchasing decision based on economic efficiency, otherwise we'd all be riding bicycles, scooters or kei cars to work...
If you want to get really philosophical, the economic arguments about what engineering solution is better reach a dead end when you try to figure out what the end goal is. To determine which solution gets you closer to the goal, you have to know what the goal is. From an economic point of view human life has no value whatsoever, other than to create more capital.
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Hmm... killed the thread with that one. *high fives*
For the record, it wasn't my intention for that to come off as a big negative downerfest. My history has a deep strain of nihilism built in to it that most people aren't accustomed to. Once you get used to it, it doesn't really have a positive or negative connotation to it, it's just something that is.
I don't view car culture as a waste, or something frivolous; actually quite the opposite. The choices that people make as far what as what chassis to start with, or what modifications to make to it are (should) be based on their own personal ideals and goals. The amount of time, consideration, and resources which people are willing to invest into their builds can speak louder about who they are and what their values are than a handful of words ever could.
So, to get back on topic, it's obvious that El Snappo's priorities in life have shifted from cars to family. As a perpetual bachelor, I can't say that I understand it, but I'm certainly willing to respect it. Again, maybe I'm a little too ignorant, but in my mind, that rules out the e46 M3. It seem like the real debate here should be e9x 335 with bolt-ons vs e9x m3...
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Hmm... killed the thread with that one. *high fives*
For the record, it wasn't my intention for that to come off as a big negative downerfest. My history has a deep strain of nihilism built in to it that most people aren't accustomed to. Once you get used to it, it doesn't really have a positive or negative connotation to it, it's just something that is.
I don't view car culture as a waste, or something frivolous; actually quite the opposite. The choices that people make as far what as what chassis to start with, or what modifications to make to it are (should) be based on their own personal ideals and goals. The amount of time, consideration, and resources which people are willing to invest into their builds can speak louder about who they are and what their values are than a handful of words ever could.
So, to get back on topic, it's obvious that El Snappo's priorities in life have shifted from cars to family. As a perpetual bachelor, I can't say that I understand it, but I'm certainly willing to respect it. Again, maybe I'm a little too ignorant, but in my mind, that rules out the e46 M3. It seem like the real debate here should be e9x 335 with bolt-ons vs e9x m3...
It wasn't nihilism. You gave value to life by saying it only exhisted to create capital. What you're saying is more of a marxist thought.
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