Helmets: What the snell do I need
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The airbag part is an interesting point that you guys keep bringing up. My car has airbags but they're made by Takata and are currently under recall so they may kill me in the event of an accident. A full face sounds more and more appealing.
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Pegasus is a candy store of fun things to spend money on. There's also Behling Racing Equipment in Butler, though their web site hasn't been updated since 2012. Their founder passed in October 2012 so not sure if they're still running.
One thing Pegasus will ask is if you plan to be wearing a balaclava (nomex fire resistant head sock) under the helmet. Changes the fit. Given your plans for just ice events, autox, and track days, not really necessary. Part of the mandatory safety gear for track racing. Sweating into a head sock you can wash can also be better than funking up your helmet.
The controversy over the closed face and airbag thing is that with stock seat belts the belts' stitching is designed to progressively give way in an accident and that is designed to work with the airbag. You meet in the middle. Supposed problem is your head coming forward and the bag hits the closed face chin protector and snaps your head back injuring your spine/neck instead of you burying your face in the bag. Patsbimmer has it right through, short of a Darth Vader helmet the airbag shrapnel will probably kill you anyway either way. Better to have a closed helmet to help keep the OPR ("other people's rubber") out of your teeth.
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also, I forgot to say, bravo on the thread title, mr. m42b32
The controversy over the closed face and airbag thing is that with stock seat belts the belts' stitching is designed to progressively give way in an accident and that is designed to work with the airbag. You meet in the middle. Supposed problem is your head coming forward and the bag hits the closed face chin protector and snaps your head back injuring your spine/neck instead of you burying your face in the bag. Patsbimmer has it right through, short of a Darth Vader helmet the airbag shrapnel will probably kill you anyway either way. Better to have a closed helmet to help keep the OPR ("other people's rubber") out of your teeth.
I read about this 'controversy', it seems like a theory someone came up with that is just plausible enough in peoples minds that they have believed it. the stories talking about governing race bodies changing the rules to compensate for the airbags, but this was years ago and nothing has been changed. *shrug*
are seat belts in BMWs with airbags different from those in cars without airbags? i've never heard of such a thing in e30s or e34s.
Dan
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Good point. Just checked Real OEM and parts numbers for the front seat belts are the same for the 1986-91 e30s (pre-airbag and airbag models). Same part number for the 12/81 - 5/91.
I remember this argument from my Miata days and rechecked the Miata forums. There were driver/passenger belt differences in the NA (89-97) US models that only came with driver's airbags. Driver's side in the US had EA belts. "An energy absorbing (EA) sew pattern is a loop of web, held together with stitches. The stitches break more or less sequentially, allowing a loop of web to lengthen while absorbing some energy. The EA loop in the Miata was almost certainly tuned to work with the bags to optimize injury values in an NCAP crash or for FMVSS 208 crash tests."
As for racing, you're wearing 5-6-7 point harness and these days a mandated HANs. Still impressive to see in slow motion how much the belts will stretch in a frontal hit. Steering wheel regulations vary. NASA's general CCR only requires removing the steering wheel lock, but the different NASA race series have explicit rules on airbags. For example, in SPEC e30 rules the airbag must be disconnected or defused during on track sessions, and can be removed. I pulled mine in my build and swapped out the steering wheel. Figured exploding things were the last thing I needed in my car.
Did a quick check and SCCA's 2017 GCR also has the regs on steering wheel locks, and only mentions airbags in the rules for SPEC e46 which requires airbag removal, as does American Sedan. ChumpCar's 2017 GCR requires removal and disarming of all airbags.
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so pretty consistent about removing the airbags. do any state why in the rules?
Dan
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good information here. Joe - if you want to join me, iI'm going to Pegasus on Saturday the 21st to try some on, as I've never wore a helmet so sizing is a big ? mark. I will have to buy one on the spot for the 22nd event, but i'd rather get a properly fitting one even if the selection isn't as great as online. from the research I've found, people do like the open face for visibility and coolness (temperature) but they won't protect your face in the event of an accident. considering I have no airbags in either car, i'd like to keep my face bones in order if it comes to that, so i was leaning towards closed face. plus I can hide my shame face after some poor driving.
That would work for me! Let me know what timing you're thinking when the day gets closer. I don't think I have anything going on that day so whatever works is good.
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will do. it will be later morning but i'll text you friday.
Dan
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Another item to note... As a guy who was in one horrific crash that turned into two crashes (was driving) and one small crash on a track (wasn't driving). Spend the 30-40 bucks and get a neck donut if you aren't going full HANS. They help support the weight of the helmet so your neck doesn't take as much of the strain and also it helps to straighten your neck. Again, remember that adding a helmet also adds weight to your head when moving upon impact. Cheap insurance;)
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Since we already had the airbag and helmet controversy in this thread might as well add the neck collar and helmet controversy [emoji41]
Short version: good for fatigue and karting but not a track day safety device.
If you've got a roll bar / cage and a fixed-back race seat spend the money for a HANs or other H&N restraint. After watching footage of my head when I smacked a wall at RA I also added a halo containment seat.
All that said, I've got an old Simpson foam collar gathering dust. Neck support or useful donut to sit on if your other end has issues...
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I like this thread
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Since we already had the airbag and helmet controversy in this thread might as well add the neck collar and helmet controversy
Short version: good for fatigue and karting but not a track day safety device.
If you've got a roll bar / cage and a fixed-back race seat spend the money for a HANs or other H&N restraint. After watching footage of my head when I smacked a wall at RA I also added a halo containment seat.
All that said, I've got an old Simpson foam collar gathering dust. Neck support or useful donut to sit on if your other end has issues...
lots of drama in the racing safety equipment world!
so if someone has their head up their ass, the donut will protect both at the same time?
Dan
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Just to add on to why the HANS is mandatory as well as why the collar does not work. As Rich said, the HANS only comes into play with harnesses. This is the first I have heard about the full face helmet and airbag argument but as I was told when buying a helmet -- "buy the full face helmet because you like your face"
I hope this link works.
https://www.facebook.com/racecareng/videos/10152479509154707/?pnref=story
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I guess I was not clear in my comment. I was discussing the personal benefits of entry level equipment for track days (HPDE). HANS devices are/were not mandatory. I would definitely agree that there is not replacement for the HANS device. It's the route to go. But, for people starting out and buying a helmet I would recommend what has worked for me. Sadly I've been in too many wrecked BMW's and personally after being in an accident with one and without one, I noticed a large difference in overall neck travel and post accident muscle fatigue. After reading the thread start regarding the seat where headroom appeared to be an issue, I was lead believe that the seats are stock and/or a cage is not present. Ergo, I was under the impression (perhaps false) that this was not a car in which a HANS device would be utilized.
Again, it's just personal experience for me with this item - nothing more nothing less. If they have not benefited you in any way and/or work for your bottoms better - cheers.
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dastuz, all good. I picked my collar up after one of my first track days after my neck was sore from riding as a passenger in some instructor cars. The issue turned out to be a combination of a cheap heavy helmet and the way a novice passenger tends to carry their head versus a driver (e.g., more torque on the neck due to a failure to look ahead/up and especially the failure to anticipate and look through the turns). Fixing both of these made the collar unnecessary for me, plus I had been exploring more about the pros and cons of collars in wrecks and decided this was not for me. At the time when I was driving I was just starting out with stock seats and roll bar.
Sounds like you've had more than your fair share of BMW wrecks. Hope that pattern changes, or has changed, for the better. Good that the collar helped you, and more importantly glad that you were able to walk away.
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At the time when I was driving I was just starting out with stock seats and roll bar.
did you have any problems with e30 sport seats and helmet clearance? i have a tall torso and am a little concerned I will be hitting the roof. i think you are a little taller than me too.
Dan
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Boris3 said:
At the time when I was driving I was just starting out with stock seats and roll bar.
did you have any problems with e30 sport seats and helmet clearance? i have a tall torso and am a little concerned I will be hitting the roof. i think you are a little taller than me too.
My head clears with stock sports and a helmet
I rode in Brooke's Miata with a hardtop and helmet. That was a tight squeeze
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did you have any problems with e30 sport seats and helmet clearance? i have a tall torso and am a little concerned I will be hitting the roof. i think you are a little taller than me too.
I look forward to running a fixed back seat for a bit more head room! I will finally be able to sit upright and not be slouching.
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I'm 6' and tall torso as well so understand the challenge.
FWIW, here's my progression.
I started out in 2001 in a 93 Miata with a foam modded stock seat (bottom foam mostly cut out), bolt in roll bar and hard top, and stock belts. Next went to a fixed back Momo Start t-frame race seat with the bottom cushion removed, 6-pt harness and fabbed mounts which got me lower. I fit and my helmet didn't touch the hard top but barely passed the broomstick test and my helmet back was closer to the bar than I liked.
When I switched to the e30 in 2007 the starting DE setup was the well worn stock sport seats at the lowest possible setting, a Kirk roll bar, and some used Schroth asm belts. Head clearance with helmet but not a lot. Sun roof carriage and head liner limit the space. Plus the faster I got the less comfortable I felt about the safety of the whole belt setup.
So... next was a used Recaro SRD seat with Massive Lee's adapters to fit the e30 sliders, and a six point harness. Replaced that set up with a used Cobra Suzuka GT fixed back seat (still have that as my passenger seat for DE ride alongs). Needed the GT to get the shoulder harness holes high enough relative to the harness cross bar. By the way this is the other issue if you have a tall torso when you're race seat shopping.
When I went completely off the deep end and gutted and caged the car I went with a new Suzuka GT, VAC floor and side mounts.
The current setup with the OMP HTE-R seat, omp side mounts and the vac floor mounts turns out to be the best yet for overall fit, and plenty of helmet clearance.
Sorry for rambling on. Short version: yes you'll fit but it takes some time and experimentation to find out what works best for you. Also the price point will always increase ... welcome to the slippery slope.
You guys know this already but at an autox or track day always walk around the paddock and ask to sit in people's cars. Cheap way to try out seats and setups.
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I'm 6'4"... I already know fitting in the e36 with a helmet is going to be interesting. I'll most likely require a combination of slouching, gangster lean, and possibly an open sunroof.
For the e30, the slicktop gives me a little more room so hopefully I can make it work as I am planning to keep a completely stock interior. Once the e30 is moving again, it will see the majority of helmet related driving and the e36 will be reserved for daily duty and winter events. I guess worst case scenario I swap in a fixed back seat before events.
Anyone know, on average, how much a helmet would add to the top of your head?
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