Hello

[B C]

patsbimmer1 said:

Earl said:

[emoji20]

"The difference is you care about driving but prioritize form and accept the consequences."

Absolutely, it brings me great joy to see Earl's 328i being driven hard and enjoyed.

Earl has attention to detail and patience rivaled by nobody I have ever met! (This is not hyperbole).

So when I mention "stupid mods" I hope it is understood that there is a VAST difference between high quality craftwork and attention to detail, in any form, vs. cheap, tacky, and extreme for the sake of being extreme

Hopefully I haven't rustled any feathers, but nobody should be seeking my validation anyways.

-guy with the van and the busted E30

[Iceddragon]

I guess the point is I'm one of you guys not one if those guys. My heart is blue and white

[m42b32]

Seconding what snap and patsbimmer1 said, (in my opinion at least) the problem is that WCEC, whether the people who started it like it or not, has become associated with the people that take the fun out of car meets and give 'car people' a bad name. These are typically people that neglect all maintenance, cut the springs, chop off the muffler, black out all the lights so they work less, and then show up to car meets in their safety hazards blowing vape clouds in people's faces, swearing, talking sh!t, interrupting announcers, and just generally acting (and driving) like assholes. 

Don't worry though, here (from my experience at least) you are innocent until proven guilty haha

The new wheels look good!

[Iceddragon]

I mean, I've met several of you before and this never came up. It's just a sticker lol

[Earl]

I think he got scared away=/

[Iceddragon]

Naw, I was actually going to ask you guys earlier but I ran out of lunch time.

I will almost certainly be in the market for an E90 M3 late next year, and am kind of obsessed with it. Does anyone have any advice for me on what to look for and where? Common issues, pricing, etc? They will go down some before I get to go after one, but I'm going to take my time and buy the right one when I finally can.

Its literally my dream car so I'm really excited, and I know there are at least two on here

[YoungCR]

Bravo for wanting a sedan! Rod bearings are always a issue on ///M motors.

[Iceddragon]

Ha thanks, I figure I can pretend to be an adult with the sedan, but we all know better.

I hadn't heard of that issue before, makes for interesting reading.

[Earl]

You also dont want to buy a car like that from some vape lord or tribal tatted tapout bro. Those would be things to watch out for

[Iceddragon]

Yeah that's what I'm gathering and willing to wait out. When I go to buy one it will have to be the perfect one, because I will probably end up keeping it a VERY long time.
Even the rod bearing issue seems to be an issue of neglect more so than faulty engineering.

[Earl]

I mean you shouldn't have to change rod bearings on a car for anything less than 200k miles on it to be honest

[i_love_cars]

As someone who came from two 135i's, my latter one with ridiculous power, I can tell you the M3 is superior in every way other than straight-line power, which you will not miss at all. Do it. Buy it. Do it now.

Rod bearing issue is wildly over-stated on the E9x M3, however, it gets that because the cost of repair on a failed engine is astronomical at around $25k. If you look at the production numbers, and if you go to the track regularly like me and have seen literally hundreds of E9x M3s over the years running hot laps all day and never spinning bearings, you will quickly realize that there just aren't that many of them that grenade. That said (somewhat ironically) there are some performance shops on the M3 forums who will tell you that nearly every car with failed bearings they have seen were due to track cars that do a lot of high RPM downshifting which puts a lot of stress on the bearings. 

People have done exhaustive research tearing down these motors, collecting data from people who have reported failed rod bearings, and it appears that less than 1% of cars have the issue. Some people have had bearings changed at over 100k with 0 wear. Other look horrible at 30k. There's a LOT of anecdotal conclusions that we could make about it. But there just is not concrete evidence that is empirical in any way, and I doubt there ever will be. So that said.....

I bought my M3 in utterly pristine condition as several forum members here can attest to when they saw it in person after I drove it back from Virginia. 50k miles original owner, a female enthusiast who drives at VIR, in her 50's who did the proper break-in over the first 1200 miles, and kept the car in like-new condition stored on a checkered tile, sealed garage floor, and that is no exaggeration. Like-new to the point that it's worth it for me to be paying my detailer to come to my house on a regular schedule twice per month all summer long to upkeep the car. That is who you want to buy a car from. If you buy one, get it from someone with money who is also an enthusiast, and preferably a 1-owner with maintenance history. This is a car that the average repair cost is very high based on parts cost alone. You do not compromise when buying a car like this, unless you're a poor schmuck who shouldn't be buying one in the first place because you found the cheapest, $26k m3 you could with 100k miles, and then come on M3 forums asking if you should be concerned about rod bearings (yes this happens on a weekly basis). 

I believe if you want to buy the car, you should educate yourself and if you are afraid of things like rod bearing failures, you shouldn't be buying this car. If you can financially deal with the possibility of the engine grenading outside of warranty, then buy it and do like I do which is drive the absolute shit out of it and rev it out all the time listening to glorious V8 noises and killing the environment and dropping gears next to Toyota Prius drivers.

If you can swing it, best bet is to buy a pristine example, and either get a warranty and proactively change rod bearings for $2500 after warranty expires, or buy without warranty and just pay $2500 for new rod bearings right away, and read up on how to change throttle actuators DIY (which is very easy by the way, I've changed them out for other people who own these cars).

[Iceddragon]

Awesome, that's what I was looking for! I saw your M3 at the cruise last october and loved it, its pretty much exactly what I want. 

I am willing to wait for the perfect one, but the price for those is still higher than I expected to be honest. That said, I want it to be perfect and honestly I would want to travel to go get it, the idea of driving home in my brand new M3 sends tingles up my spine. 

I really REALLY need to get serious about making sure this will happen next year. I need to get a house first to have a place to keep it, and then its time to save up. I think financially I can do it and I expect that they will depreciate a bit more in the next year and a half anyway, leaving more money for repairs and upkeep.

But what is a dream worth anyway. I've been hanging out with some friends that have an AMG V8 and an SRT8, and the sound and the power is just intoxicating. But the whole time I keep thinking, I want the better one. Give me the M3.

[Earl]

I wouldn't expect them to depreciate much, if any tbh

[patsbimmer1]

I agree with Earl.  The cheap ones may get cheaper but your not going to see a decent one below $25k~.  Everything below that will be a higher mileage example in less than pristine condition.  E46 M3's dipped below $20k for a minute but nice ones quickly shot back up.  E36 M3's are in the teen range for a nice condition example.  I don't see an E9x M3 falling into those ranges.

[Iceddragon]

Well my thought was that when the next generation comes out that the previous ones will go down in price some. 

But if you guys are right and they don't drop much more, and assuming I can't make up the difference, would I be better off getting an E46 M3 instead, or something like a 135i? I guess I'm not really sure, I want the V8.

[patsbimmer1]

It depends on what you want.  The V8 will be different than the E46 than the 135i.  They're all different tools that do different things well.  If you want the V8 then save up and buy a V8.

[Earl]

What you should really do is drive a good example of each one and see which you prefer. You may come to find out that you actually like the e46 ///M or the 135i more than the e9X ///M

[i_love_cars]

Earl is right, other than the 135i seems pointless to drive because you have a 335 now so it's basically a lateral move other than interior space. I drove @bluE92 's M3 before I made the decision to buy one myself. And if you can find a decent stock example of an E46 M3 that'd be good to test drive. 

The discussion we should be having is "do i want a true driver's car or do I want a run-of-the-mill pedestrian BMW that goes fast in a straight line?" Because that is the difference between an ///M and a 335/135. And it's not even worth talking about interior because the quality of E9x M3 vs. 335/135 is miles apart. It's so much better in the M3 that it isn't even worth discussing.

I have owned 2 135i cars and love them but there is no way anyone in their right mind can drive one and then drive an M3 and not realize the staggering difference in handling, control, and overall confidence of the chassis. On cruises with friends and our local BMW group I found myself having to manage throttle a lot on the 135i going around turns - there's just so much torque and the car wants to push into understeer a bit unless you upgrade the control arms to the ones from the M3. You have a 335 now so it would be utterly pointless to go to a 135i. 

The M3 is a pure joy to drive in comparison - I can basically go flat out on throttle around turns and shit never gets weird. I also drove @bluE92 's M3 last night - we traded cars for a jaunt and he has an ESS 550 kit on his and I will say that even with the increased power in that kit, I do not think it really detracts from the drivability of the car because it isn't 'too much' power but actually feels more like how the m3 should have come from the factory. It's still very linear delivery due to the supercharger, whereas the 135i is an on/off switch with the turbo. So if you feel like the stock M3 is lacking power, you can always get a used ESS 550 kit for like $4500 or so and have a properly strong M3 without compromising much. 

The E46 M3 is indeed a different beast and is the most "raw" driving experience of the 3 cars we are talking about here. I drove @dastuz's E46 when it was stock before he jallopied it. The engine is very raspy, and it doesn't rev as high as the V8. The E9x M3 is going to give you a much nicer interior and features, a V8, and on the street I guarantee you will not notice any difference in driving capability between an E46 M3 and an E9x M3. You need to go to the track to see that. But what you will feel on the street in the E46 is a more connected driving feel. The E9x M3 just has a bit more cushion in it. Think of the E46 M3 as a 40/60 luxury/performance split, and the E9x M3 as a 60/40 lux/perf split. 

Bottom line is - my next track car will almost surely be an E46 M3, but in the year 2017, for something that qualifies as a "summer daily", the E9x M3 is a no-brainer by comparison.

[i_love_cars]

I will be in Neenah next week on Thursday afternoon/evening and if the weather is good I can bring my M3 and let you test drive it.