i may have to buy an M2
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I present to you, the M4 GTS. Purpose built track demon.
The m1, a homologation special track car.
The e30 m3 evo cars, homolgation special track cars.
did you miss the part where I said they've never had a "MASS-PRODUCTION" purpose-built track car? You are going to tell me those examples you just gave were/are going to be mass-produced as the de-facto standard?
The M3 is the defacto standard, and that has never been sold, advertised, or reviewed as anything other than the perfectly balanced performance machine, with an edge leaning towards track-inspired driving dynamics.
Not the M4 GTS, not the M1, and not any e30 evo.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
i should mention that I still plan to upgrade the turbo on my 135 in a few months and do some light suspension work. The results of how I feel afterwards will determine if I buy an M2 sooner rather than later.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
yes car bloat is a problem for sure in the auto industry as a whole, but in terms of M division there has been a more holistic improvement in the cars.
as the weight has gone up, so has the braking power, horsepower, and if you've ever seen a modern M chassis right down to the tub, you can see a lot of strength. With a stiffer set of coilovers, I would have 0 concerns about the weight of the M2 and its ability to handle at the track, and it damn sure wouldn't feel sloppy. an M235i is sloppy because it's not an M car. It has shitty soft suspension just like my shitty soft suspension on my 135i. M cars feel tight no matter what.
an e46 M3 CSL goes around the Ring in 7:50. Compared to 7:52 on the M4 and 7:58 on the M2. Think about that. That M3 CSL was 3000 pounds but it was fucking gutted. Utterly gutted. No amenities, just pure driver car. So BMW, for all the weight gain in the M series of recent years, shows the CSL is only a mere 2 seconds faster than it's direct big brother the M4. But that new M4 has driving manners and really nice tech features and better safety features. It doesn't have to sacrifice everything to have a good lap time.
That's called evolution.
BMW M has always been about balance of performance and driving manners. They've never had a mass-production M car that is a purpose-built race car. The E46 CSL was a special vehicle that took some amount of aim at that but was never a household thing. The reason that M has been the gold standard in overall performance for 25 years is because it's a car that does everything very well, with an slight lean towards performance/racing.
you sound like a PR release as part of the new video. I know all the info you suggested -- that is not the point.
The point I tried to make in fewer words is that it is depressing to see the weight of new cars. Sure, it may be great on track -- for two sessions. Then the brakes overheat, the tires wear out quickly and you wish you could lose another 500lbs fast. That is part of the reason why anyone that tracks even an e46 m3 finds out the hard way after 2 sessions that the factory brakes suck. They are not track brakes and I'm sure neither are these -- despite their catchy blue paint job and fancy piston count!
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you sound like a PR release as part of the new video. I know all the info you suggested -- that is not the point.
The point I tried to make in fewer words is that it is depressing to see the weight of new cars. Sure, it may be great on track -- for two sessions. Then the brakes overheat, the tires wear out quickly and you wish you could lose another 500lbs fast. That is part of the reason why anyone that tracks even an e46 m3 finds out the hard way after 2 sessions that the factory brakes suck. They are not track brakes and I'm sure neither are these -- despite their catchy blue paint job and fancy piston count!
that's cute, considering I run hot laps in my 135i with stock brakes and never have any issues after 6 or 7 30 minute sessions in a given day. Stock brakes on these cars are not racing brakes, but to make ignorant assumptions about how durable they are at the track is a step too far.
I have 6-piston calipers in front but I also know that the rotor heat dissipation is not as ideal as it could be, and the caliper pistons are actually made of a shitty cheap material that has actually started on fire and melted on some 135i's at the track. I know the weaknesses of stock brakes on cars as they get heavier because stopping so much weight will generate a ton of heat. There is definitely a limit but you are grossly exaggerating the limitations of the stock brakes on these cars based on their weight.
You are talking as if they are completely incapable of repeated track use. I've never seen a late-model BMW side-lined at the track due to brakes overheating. Ever. 98% of people buying a new M and tracking it will not have the skill to push the car to such a limit where the brakes would actually overheat and fail.
I don't want to discount the fact that a lighter car with good brakes will allow you to brake a lot later before turn-in - there's a reason people love Miatas at the track. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point - I'm saying you are overstating limitations of modern brakes on a car like a BMW M. 2 sessions and being sidelined is laughable.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
that's cute, considering I run hot laps in my 135i with stock brakes and never have any issues after 6 or 7 30 minute sessions in a given day. Stock brakes on these cars are not racing brakes, but to make ignorant assumptions about how durable they are at the track is a step too far.
I have 6-piston calipers in front but I also know that the rotor heat dissipation is not as ideal as it could be, and the caliper pistons are actually made of a shitty cheap material that has actually started on fire and melted on some 135i's at the track. I know the weaknesses of stock brakes on cars as they get heavier because stopping so much weight will generate a ton of heat. There is definitely a limit but you are grossly exaggerating the limitations of the stock brakes on these cars based on their weight.
You are talking as if they are completely incapable of repeated track use. I've never seen a late-model BMW side-lined at the track due to brakes overheating. Ever. 98% of people buying a new M and tracking it will not have the skill to push the car to such a limit where the brakes would actually overheat and fail.
I don't want to discount the fact that a lighter car with good brakes will allow you to brake a lot later before turn-in - there's a reason people love Miatas at the track. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point - I'm saying you are overstating limitations of modern brakes on a car like a BMW M. 2 sessions and being sidelined is laughable.
Maybe it's driver, maybe it's not. My cars are relatively light. In 10 years of regular track duty I've seen e46 m3's and newer have brake problems every track weekend. The cars that don't typically have aftermarket kits on them. I've seen it in Intermediate and Advanced run groups, typically the instructors know by then that the stock brakes aren't worth the hassle and have upgraded.
I saw your car at the BMW club weekend at Road America -- didn't you see any prorblems? One guy ran home for rotors, another needed brake pads -- it's totally common on a hard driven e46+.
I'm glad your experiences have been different, but as you push your car harder I expect you'll probably see what I mean.
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did you miss the part where I said they've never had a "MASS-PRODUCTION" purpose-built track car? You are going to tell me those examples you just gave were/are going to be mass-produced as the de-facto standard?
The M3 is the defacto standard, and that has never been sold, advertised, or reviewed as anything other than the perfectly balanced performance machine, with an edge leaning towards track-inspired driving dynamics.
Not the M4 GTS, not the M1, and not any e30 evo.
You would be correct in me missing the mass production part of that.
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Maybe it's driver, maybe it's not. My cars are relatively light. In 10 years of regular track duty I've seen e46 m3's and newer have brake problems every track weekend. The cars that don't typically have aftermarket kits on them. I've seen it in Intermediate and Advanced run groups, typically the instructors know by then that the stock brakes aren't worth the hassle and have upgraded.
I saw your car at the BMW club weekend at Road America -- didn't you see any prorblems? One guy ran home for rotors, another needed brake pads -- it's totally common on a hard driven e46+.
I'm glad your experiences have been different, but as you push your car harder I expect you'll probably see what I mean.
yeah I count myself among the people where I say "most people don't have the skill to push the car to the limit..." - I am an intermediate-level driver and have done this for a few years now, but by no means am I pushing as hard as anyone in an advanced group on a DE or anyone who is doing wheel-to-wheel racing.
But along that line, for an experienced driver I would submit most cars you buy other than something like a GT3 are going to struggle to keep up under such hard driving conditions on stock brakes, regardless of weight. If you are a very good driver and carry a lot of speed, you're going to eventually need a better brake package than OE.
and that's a large part of what I'm trying to get at here - these cars are not race cars. They perform well and are totally competent for regular DE duty for most people. I run a good track pad and good fluid on stock rotors/calipers right now and that's good enough. I know it won't be forever, but it's plenty for now and that would apply to most drivers. Take a look around at any DE and probably 75% of people in the advanced groups have trailered cars that aren't even remotely close to stock, and for good reason.
I definitely saw at least one dude have to go into town and try to source pads, lol
But there were several e9x m3's that had no issues on stock brakes even though the guys all brought spare pad sets just in case. Granted I passed all of those guys as they weren't really driving that well, but that goes back to my point that for most people, these cars are just fine despite their weight. For reference I absolutely hear you on the e46 and submit that for some reason that particular car seems to just not have as good of brakes as you'd like out of the box. My good friend has one and I've driven it hard before he upgraded the brakes and it was night and day difference for sure.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
and that's a large part of what I'm trying to get at here - these cars are not race cars.
But they are advertised as track ready cars -- all the car companies tout their cars as evil track machines. My point is that most of them are, until the weight of any of these new cars shows up around the second session.
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meh, I don't see any flaming going on at all here.
I also don't see any irrelevance in us talking about the challenges of of overcoming the increasing weight of these cars in a thread about me potentially buying one of them.
and it's my thread god dammit !
1990m3, I think maybe we differentiate on terminology - I say they aren't advertised as race cars, you say they are advertised as track cars. To me, I don't equate "track ready" with "race ready". DEs are not races. There are no prizes and most people there are there because they don't want to race. They just want a relatively safe, controlled environment to push their cars harder than they can on the street and hopefully become better drivers. Racing implies pushing everything to the limit because you have something at stake and a legit competition.
I think the track-ready angle of an M car is perfectly legit advertisement, unless you equate "track ready" with "race ready". Buuuuut that also doesn't mean there isn't a bit of advertising mixed in there that leans towards some potentially unrealistic expectations that you are talking about
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
I was at Autobahn yesterday. Is this the car we're talking about? It says "M235i" on the back, not "M2".
I didn't get the drive it, somebody already had it (and the M4) signed out yesterday.
Pic-10162015-001.jpg
Nope, the m2 isn't out yet. That is not a true m car and more of a sport package.
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I'm not being facetious when I ask this (I've stopped reading up on new BMW models since they all went turbo), but what exactly differentiates the new M models from the base models now?
I know they'll come with more power and better chassis tuning, but could you take take a new 335i, slap a tune and some coils on it and get M3 performance for thousands upon thousands less?
I'm still thinking back to the e46/e90 days where you couldn't take a 328i and ever hope to reach M3 levels of performance, or even a 330i to e46 M3 performance etc..
^^ That was all serious, I'm not trying to be a dick about the newer cars by any means, I'm just super out of the loop lately..
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I'm not being facetious when I ask this (I've stopped reading up on new BMW models since they all went turbo), but what exactly differentiates the new M models from the base models now?
I know they'll come with more power and better chassis tuning, but could you take take a new 335i, slap a tune and some coils on it and get M3 performance for thousands upon thousands less?
I'm still thinking back to the e46/e90 days where you couldn't take a 328i and ever hope to reach M3 levels of performance, or even a 330i to e46 M3 performance etc..
^^ That was all serious, I'm not trying to be a dick about the newer cars by any means, I'm just super out of the loop lately..
I have felt those same feelings, why get an M3/M4 when you can get a 335i with FBO/tune and make sweet power?!?
Fortunately they haven't just done a half baked M car. I think the E36 M3 is more similar to a non-M E36 than an M3/M4 is to a 335.
Heres a little link about some of the differences in the S55 engine over the N5X (cooling, oil system, closed deck block with coated cylinder bores instead of liners...) http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/09/25/meet-new-s55-engine/
it has a 9mm reduction in stroke as well.
The M cars have a clutch type LSD where the 335i has a grandma diff, and im sure there are a LOT of differences but they are so subtle.
For most folks I think a tuned 335i would be all that they need.
The guys that go to the track would certainly appreciate the diff, cooling, and durability upgrades.
S55
N55
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S55 vs N55
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I'm not being facetious when I ask this (I've stopped reading up on new BMW models since they all went turbo), but what exactly differentiates the new M models from the base models now?
I know they'll come with more power and better chassis tuning, but could you take take a new 335i, slap a tune and some coils on it and get M3 performance for thousands upon thousands less?
I'm still thinking back to the e46/e90 days where you couldn't take a 328i and ever hope to reach M3 levels of performance, or even a 330i to e46 M3 performance etc..
^^ That was all serious, I'm not trying to be a dick about the newer cars by any means, I'm just super out of the loop lately..
understood. I have a lot of friends who also think I'm crazy for running a turbo car at the track and are NA BMW purists. Make no mistake, I agree with them but I just love my little 1er and the fact that it just isn't that common to see on a road course so I drive it anyway
A 335 will never be on par with an M with a tune and some coils. The new BMW non-M models are so incredibly soft. My 135 is so soft. The chassis is a lot different too. A 135 saves a little weight over the 335 and most of the M3 bits just bolt right in, so given equal drivers, if you put a stock e92 M3 up against a 135i with LSD, coils, M3 front swaybar, M3 control arms, M3 subframe bushings, brakes, and a tune for some power, you would have a very close race around the track.
a modified 335 probably has no chance of ever keeping up with an M3 unless you sink oodles of cash into it and even then questionable. If the M3 is even lightly modified, forget about it.
The newer BMW non-M cars make amazing street cars, some of the best IMO. You can't beat the reliability of the motor and transmissions on anything N-series related, and you can't beat the communities behind them combined with the tuning they offer. But handling-wise and track-drivability, M is just leagues ahead and it'd cost gonzos dollars to keep up.
That's why I'm not bastardizing the ride quality of my 135i - I'm gonna upgrade the turbo for fun on the street, and do very light suspension because while I track very often in summer, it's better to just buy the proper platform from the getgo if you want to start going suspension-mod crazy. I'll keep the 135i as a daily driver (or replace it with an M2, we'll see because with an upgraded turbo on the 135i i may just not care about an m2 anymore lol), and eventually buy a 4th car to be my dedicated track vehicle.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i -
That's good to know, thanks for the explanations guys!
In the future, should the 911 blow up on me, a 135i is what I've been thinking of getting.. I just haven't gotten around to doing ANY research on the motors/turbos etc.. Honestly the last thing I remember actually reading about was the HPFP when those were the "new" things lol
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i'll let you take mine for a spin at the meet on Saturday if you haven't driven a modified one before.
2011 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - ESS 625 supercharged
2007 Z4MR
2003 E39 M5
2002 E46 M3
2021 X5 40i
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