Stories from Retail Auto Service

[REKIII]

I will read new posts in this thread with excitement.

[patsbimmer1]

I had a customer reach out to me with a vibration issue on his 2007 Nissan Sentra.  The timeline goes something like this:  4 tires installed November of 2015.  December 2015 we recommend struts and install an inner tie rod he supplied and provided an alignment. August of 2017 we install 4 more tires, install outer tie rod and perform alignment.  27k miles go between sets of tires.  Customer comes back after the tires are installed in 2017 and says he has a vibration on the front passenger side.  The Service Manager has him come back in and they perform a road force balance on every time and find that all are well below tolerance.  For those that don't know what Road Force balancing is it's when the balancing machine actually applies downward pressure on the tire via a large cylinder to simulate the force of the vehicle being applied to the tire.  This is the best way to determine if a tire is out of round, has a hard spot, etc and if you can force match the wheel and tire assembly to eliminate a ride disturbance caused by a tire/wheel.  So, the tires and wheels aren't causing this guys vibration and the Service Manager explains this to the customer.  During this conversation the customer states that he had this issue prior to having the tires replaced and assumed it was the tires so that's why he bought another set.  He is absolutely convinced that the tires are the problem and wants a free upgrade because in his mind he now has gotten two sets of the same tires that are faulty.  The store reaches out to me and I send our assistant equipment manager in to inspect the vehicle.  This guy used to be a tech for us and I have very high regards for his ability to diagnose these sorts of issues.  The store works it out with the customer and he comes back in.  My guy determines that the tires are fine, the alignment is fine and nothing was damaged during the install of the outer tie rod.  He also determined that the brakes were fine, front suspension and bushings were fine, struts, CV axles seem to move without issue, etc.  He has no idea what's causing the vibration but knows it's not the tires.  The customer is livid and calls me.  This is where it gets good... I am on the phone with the guy for close to an hour arguing about the cause of his vibration.  He wants a free upgrade and I keep telling him no but i'd be happy to replace the other tires with another set if he'd like to pay the difference.  I explain to him that I am unwilling to do anything because 1) It was a pre-existing condition and 2) He diagnosed his own issue and never told us about this vibration.  It's impossible for us to determine if the original set of tires wer bad because he never gave us the opportunity to inspect them.  I finally ask him why he believes the tires are bad and I will never forget his response.  He gets quiet... I can hear him thinking... finally , in a somewhat hushed tone he says. "You might not believe me but I know it's the tires because God told me it was the tires."  I repeated that back to him and he confirmed, God told him the tires were bad.  He won.  He pulled the Trump card.  He out crazied the situation.  At this point I asked which set of tires he'd like and he said he hadn't thought about that.  I told him to go do some research and let me know which set of tires he'd like BUT I want him to have the vehicle inspected by a Nissan dealer near by.  I have dealt with this dealership in the past and knew they wouldn't throw us under the bus in the name of a dollar.  I said if the dealership determined that it was the tires then I would happily upgrade him to whatever tires he wanted.  He agreed.  He called me a couple days later and said that he took the vehicle in and they determined it was the outer tie rod we installed was loose and that was causing the vibration.  I discussed this with him, got the name of the Service Advisor and called them.  The Service Advisor laughed and said no, they did not tell him that a looser outer was causing the vibration they only made note that a new one had been installed.  They did however determine that there was an internal failure of the CV axle causing it to bind and they believed that's where the vibration was coming from.  I report this back to the customer and he does some back pedaling.  He tries to make whatever argument he can for this free upgrade in tires and goes as far as to say that I must have believed to some extent the tires were bad otherwise why would I ever tell him we'd upgrade him.  I threw it back in his face that I have continued to make the argument that the tires weren't at fault based off the my knowledge of how this works and the ONLY reason I ever conceded was because he told me that GOD TOLD HIM THE TIRES WERE BAD.  I told him I could only argue within logic and reason and his argument was beyond that.  As you may imagine this did not go over well.  We ended our conversation with him not agreeing with my decision to do nothing for him.  Over?  I think not.  A week later the guy calls me and says he still has the vibration and wants to know what we're going to do about it.  I reiterated that the CV axle was diagnosed by Nissan and asked if he had it replaced.  He said no because Nissan wanted to charge to much so he wants to know what we'll do for him to compensate him for the time he's spent on this.  I said i'd be happy to give him a quote at full price and that's it.  He argues some more to the point that I stopped offering to give him a quote and flat out told him to take it to anyone else other than us to have this fixed.  We left it at that and I never heard from him again.

[Boris3]

I am in awe of your ability to be the voice of patience, calm and reason in the midst of sheer escalating craziness.

[P_Roloff]

I probably would've hung up when he said God told him it was the tires. And then he goes and tries to turn it back on you with the tie rod! Absolutely ridiculous.

P.S. I love this thread, easily the most entertaining thing I see all day.

[wally509]

I commend you for not hitting the guy with something along the lines of:

"Wait a minute, you get God on the line, and instead of asking what the meaning of life is or how we got here or how big the universe is...YOU ASK HIM ABOUT YOUR FUCKING TIRES?!?"

[Jdesign]

This thread is amazing. We need a bigger heart icon.

This reminds me of the days when I worked full time at the bike shop. Think of all the crazies that cant get their drivers license or have it taken away for sucking on a bottle................. They all end up riding bicycles. I have stories of customers stealing soap, hugging employees until they cry, and even one guy shitting himself in the store. 

I salute you for sanity and ability to add some intelligence into the human race.

[patsbimmer1]

You guys are too kind!  I've been in the auto industry for 12ish years or so and in retail for 11 years and I've heard some doozies but the general public always manages to pull out something new!

Today is a little education about the BBB and how to get action out of a company.  This is a card customers love to pull and for whatever reason people think this is a threat.

First a little background on the BBB.  They are a privately funded non profit who say their mission is to improve marketplace trust.  Early on they assisted in a few law suits that helped shape some industries but over time they have become less effective.  Problem number one is that they are NOT a government agency.  They cannot levy fines or penalties against a business.  The most they could do is bring a lawsuit against a business but other than that they are strictly a company that acts as a mediator.  The second problem and the largest in my opinion is funding.  They are funded by the same businesses they are accrediting.  The ONLY way to get an A+ rating and become accredited is to be a paying member in the BBB.  The actual performance of the business is only part of how they are scored.  I can tell you from dealing with these complaints that as long as you respond in a timely manner it really doesn't matter what the customer is alleging.  You won't get any further than if you spoke to the same representative at whatever business you have an issue with.  When a customer threatens to file a complaint with the BBB my favorite line is "Well that complaint is just going to come right back to me and we're going to have the same conversation so would you like to save both of us some time and deal with it now?".  That has usually worked for me but some people are just stubborn and insist on wasting my time.

Now, if you actually feel like you have a legitimate complaint then you need to file a complaint with the DATCP (Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection).  They CAN levy fines and penalties and those complaints are taken VERY seriously.  Not that I don't take BBB complaints seriously but they don't carry the same weight as an email from the DATCP.  At least in my position if a complaint is filed with the DATCP I treat it as if it could go to litigation and I know from past experiences that my response could very well end up in a court document.

My best advice if you have an issue with a business is first and foremost try and resolve it with someone at that location in a calm manner.  If that doesn't work then seek out help from their corporate office.  If that still doesn't work then file a well organized complaint with the DATCP.

[Boris3]

Thanks for going into this in detail. The public understanding of the BBB reflects the success in the way the organization presents itself. That the BBB "signifies trust and integrity" is their mantra ... but there is much less public knowledge that businesses pay to be accredited and the ranking hinges on paying. When I opened a business in the mid 1990s I was initially pleased to be contacted by the BBB and invited to join. Then I found out about the pay to play and said no thank you. Would public perceptions of the BBB stamp change if they had more knowledge as to how accreditation works? I think your point on the limited ability/leverage of BBB as a consumer advocate is more important.

For a business, the choice to go with a BBB membership is basically an advertising decision. If your public interface is such that the BBB stamp matters (e.g., typically if your competition has it but you do not) then you pay to play. Reputational coercion as a baseline and the BBB makes its membership money.  Dig a bit reveals that sites such as Angie's List and Home Advisor ratings have their own racket dimensions, and then there is the whole issue of dealing with real and fake reviews on the array of social media sites. I can't remember if it was on this site or elsewhere that I was also reading about the craziness regarding complaints and auto dealership service department surveys. 

Ultimately, and back to the point of business-consumer relations you hit it perfectly: "My best advice if you have an issue with a business is first and foremost try and resolve it with someone at that location in a calm manner. If that doesn't work then seek out help from their corporate office.  If that still doesn't work then file a well organized complaint with the DATCP."

Looking forward to the next installment of the retail stories.  Any examples of customers and calm manner?

[YoungCR]

Boris3 said:

I can't remember if it was on this site or elsewhere that I was also reading about the craziness regarding complaints and auto dealership service department surveys. 

BMW NA's customer feedback/review surveys (at least around 2013) would fail the dealer if the customer rated them at anything 4/5 or below. Harsh but I think it was meant to keep service managers running the dept as close to BMW's guidelines/best practices and kept BMW NA involved with the individual dealer's services.

[Jdesign]

VERY good item to highlight. I have very little experience in BBB but I do know it works very similar to the JD power awards. LOL

[patsbimmer1]

Boris3 said:

Any examples of customers and calm manner?     

I have a lot of those!  I'm much more likely to work with a customer or give them the benefit of the doubt if they are calm and professional when talking to me.  I'm working with a customer right now that had purchased a set of Cooper tires about a month ago and feel that the tires "don't fit right" because the tire doesn't cover the rim.  They believed that their last tires were closer to the hubcap and covered the rim.  I've spent weeks talking to these people trying to find a solution for them that fit's their cosmetic want while also trying to convince them that the way the tires fit is indeed how they are supposed to fit.  I've taken pictures of other cars with steelies and hubcaps to show them the gap that exists between the hubcap and tire is normal and reached out to other professionals for their opinions on the pictures of the tires on the wheels.  I've spent weeks building trust with these people... Weeks.  The customer sent an email to Cooper when they started talking to me and Cooper JUST responded to them saying the tires don't appear to be seated on the beads... Cooper has ruined weeks of trust that I've built up with these customers by making an ill informed comment.  Cooper is also refusing to stand behind their "diagnosis" and will not reimburse me or the customer for the time spent reseating the tires.  Thankfully the customer sounds like they still trust me as I continue to try and find the right solution for them.  If this customer was a jerk I would have sent them packing but because they've approached the situation calmly I am putting in the time to try and make it right for them.

YoungCR said:

BMW NA's customer feedback/review surveys (at least around 2013) would fail the dealer if the customer rated them at anything 4/5 or below. Harsh but I think it was meant to keep service managers running the dept as close to BMW's guidelines/best practices and kept BMW NA involved with the individual dealer's services.

That's pretty standard in dealers.  A poor CSI score can impact someones pay depending on how the pay structure is set up for that team.  If you want to get a dealers attention then give them a poor CSI score.  We utilize a CSI but don't receive many back.  We spend A LOT of time responding to online complaints and reviews and a lot of them just make me shake my head.  We had one within the last few weeks that stated we took 2.5 hours to do a rotation/tire check on their vehicle.  Well, when my Service Manager looked into it the vehicle was dropped off an hour before the appointment, the customer left and came back 1.5 hours after the appointment and the vehicle had been completed before they showed up.  When the Service Manager reached out to the customer and asked why she wrote the complaint she stated that she wasn't inconvenienced by the situation at all and had in fact left with someone so she wouldn't have to wait in the waiting room.  She wrote the complaint because she saw other bad reviews and thought she should add one... I wish I could say this was abnormal.  When customers are confronted about these reviews they act like they had no idea someone would actually read them.  Keyboard warriors waste hours of my time every week.

Jdesign said:

VERY good item to highlight. I have very little experience in BBB but I do know it works very similar to the JD power awards. LOL

Dude, don't even get me started on JD Power!  Quickly, the Initial Quality award that GM LOVES to tout awards a manufacturer for making a vehicle with few issues WITHIN THE FIRST 90 DAYS OF OWNERSHIP.  They claim that within the first 90 days of ownership you can determine a vehicles long term reliability.  Well, according to a report I saw recently of vehicles most likely to still be on the road after 15 years roughly ZERO of the winners from 2003 were on the list.  Making a car that won't break for 90 days of ownership is like making a meal that won't give you diarrhea until 36 hours after you've eaten it instead of 24 hours.  Congratulations, you still made shit.  JD Power is a marketing company.  They sell the right to tell people about your car getting an award.  It's in their benefit to have as many vehicles as possible get an award.